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Retail Fixtures – From Wood Veneers to Laminates.

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Tue, 25 Jan 2022 16:41:18 GMT

As custom retail fixture manufacturers, we love using wood and wood products to create unique and showstopping designs. Our shop’s cabinetmaker journeymen love for natural wood – of all types and grains and finishes – is a given. Natural wood gives a very specific feel to a space and often the choice of wood and finish help a designer tell a brand story. But in the world of retail fixtures, it is very rare we have the opportunity to build solid wood pieces. For the most part, we work with veneers, high pressure laminate and thermally fused laminate.

Creating with wood veneers dates back to ancient Egypt. Since then, there have been many, many, MANY advancements that allow for high-speed production and easier application. With wood veneers, you can choose the type of wood, and the type of cut to get the wood grain effect you’re looking for. Up until recently, it was the only way to achieve a beautiful, natural woodgrain finish.

Now, with advancements in both photography and laser printing, laminates (HPL and TFL) have advanced to the point that their quality and options have expanded what is possible in the retail fixture world.

How do you know what you should use for your retail fixtures?

Simple. Ask yourself the following questions. If you’re working with a fixture or retail space designer, you’ll want to discuss all of these questions with them as well.

What look and colour are you looking for in your retail fixtures?

If you love and want the look of real, natural wood, then veneers would be your best design option. If you’re looking for a very specific shade of tangerine orange that matches your brand palate perfectly, you’re going to want to explore HPL and TFL options.

Will your leaseholder need to approve of your materials?

Malls generally fall into 3 categories (A, B, or C) based on their overall sales per square foot. Class A malls aim for $500 or more in sales per square foot. A class B mall, $300 - $500. And a class C would deliver less than $300 per square foot. In the A and B categories, the ownership or management team of the mall will most likely want to ensure a minimum standard for all design and fixtures in your space. Ideally, you’d make sure you’re clear about mall expectations before beginning your fixture design process. Many class A malls will require wood veneer or TFL.

How long is your lease for?

Custom fixtures are designed to work in a specific space. If you sign a lease for a space for 10 or more years, you can justify the cost of using more expensive materials because your fixtures will need to be built to last. Under 10 years, that’s where it becomes a bit harder to justify more expensive materials.

How long are you expecting your fixtures to last?

This question is definitely tied to the one above but it allows you to think beyond your lease. Creating lasting fixtures is harder than it seems. Design is constantly changing. What looks good and modern today, may not read that way in 5 or 10 years. If you’re interested in fixtures that are very “of the moment” you might want to consider using a less expensive material and changing out your fixtures more regularly.

How rough will people be on your fixtures?

Know your audience. Understanding who is coming into your store and how they are interacting with your merchandise should determine your fixture finish requirements. High-traffic areas and stores that rely on frequent repeat purchases will need fixtures designed for heavy wear and tear. Another consideration right now is that HPL and TFL allow for disinfecting where wood veneer does not. All of this needs to be taken into consideration in your fixture design.

What is your budget for fixtures?

Your budget for fixtures is just one of many different budgets you’ll be trying to manage when setting up a new retail space. No two retailer’s budgets will ever be the same nor is there a simple formula for determining “the right” fixture budget for any given space. Even if you had a budget for your fixtures in mind before you started reading this article, you may have already decided to reconsider your fixture strategy – changing your expected ROI. Are you a retailer that will budget to get exactly what you want for your fixtures? Or are you a retailer that will choose fixtures that will fit into an existing budget? Both are valid options.

WOOD VENEER	$$$
HIGH PRESSURE LAMINATE	$$
THERMALLY FUSED LAMINATE	$

Material choices for fixtures can be overwhelming – especially in retail where you’re depending on those fixtures to help you sell! Hopefully, you now have a bit more perspective on what you need to be thinking about in order to be confident in your decisions.

If you have any questions about how to budget for retail fixtures or questions about materials, we’d love to hear from you. And if you’re looking for custom designed retail fixtures that are built in Canada, we’d love to work with you to bring your vision to life. Want to see some of our work? Visit our portfolio.

The pros and pros of laminate fixtures for any retail environment.

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Tue, 14 Dec 2021 17:55:26 GMT

There used to be a time when laminate was considered to be far inferior to real wood or wood veneers. However, technology and construction methods have narrowed that gap in the eyes of many.

What is laminate?

A laminate is a thin sheet of material that feels a bit like plastic but is actually made by combining heavy paper, called kraft paper, with water-based resin. Laminates are easy to maintain, resistant to both stain and moisture, and durable. The pandemic brought to light another important feature of laminate fixtures – they are incredibly easy to disinfect.

Laminate fixtures come in a variety of looks from wood, to stone, to bright colours, and metallics.

What type of laminate is right for your retail environment?

There are two main categories of laminate that are used by most fixture manufacturers – High Pressure Laminate (HPL) and Thermally Fused Laminate (TFL). Knowing what each type is and what it offers is incredibly important when you are choosing your materials with your designer or manufacturer and when you are trying to understand the costs associated with each.

High Pressure Laminate (HPL) is made of a printed paper (this gives you the colour/finish of the HPL) fused to multiple sheets of kraft paper saturated with a resin. Heat and pressure are used to bond all the sheets together. Once the process is complete, you have a flexible, durable piece of thin plastic-like material that can be used to cover different surfaces.

High-Pressure Laminate is heat, moisture, stain and abrasion resistant, making it a great choice for heavy use spaces. But you must remember that the properties of the laminate change the moment you cover something with it. If, for example, you adhere the HPL to a curved fixture that was made of particle board – that piece of HPL is no longer flexible or moisture resistant because the particle board is neither of those things.

Pros:

Thin and flexible/bendable
Can be adhered to many different surfaces depending on need
Heat, moisture, stain and abrasion resistant
Doesn’t limit you to a specific core or substrate

Thermally Fused Laminate (TFL) is created by soaking printed paper (this gives you the colour/finish of the HPL) with resin and allowing it to partially dry. The partially cured sheet is then stuck to a rigid backing material (substrate or core). Heat and pressure are used to fuse the laminate and the substrate together, and the resulting laminated boards are ready to be sized and cut.

By omitting the process of fusing it to kraft paper first, there is a considerable cost savings, which make Thermally Fused Laminate a more affordable option. Like High Pressure Laminate, Thermal Fused Laminate is heat, moisture, stain and abrasion resistant. It is also peel resistant, since it’s fused directly to the core (or substrate). Again, it is important to remember that no laminate retains 100% it’s properties once it is manufactured into a fixture.

Pros:

Heat, moisture, stain and abrasion resistant
Peel resistant because sheets used to manufacture fixtures are created with the core already attached
Lower price

HPL or TFL: Can you tell the difference?

These are two retail displays we created. One is made using HPL. The other using TFL. With advances in quality laminates, it is incredibly hard to tell which one is which. And, often the choice of what to use comes down to technical specifications of what you are trying to create rather than the finished look.

It’s important to note that both High Pressure Laminate and Thermally Fused Laminate provide a durable, low maintenance solution for any retail space.

At C-West we’ve been manufacturing retail fixtures with laminates (as well as metal, glass, wood veneers, acrylic and more) for over 20 years. And as the retail landscape, materials and fixture technology evolves, we stay on top of all the advances. If you’re looking for a retail fixture manufacturer to turn to that knows how to create the impression you’re looking for, give us a call. We’re always happy to talk retail fixtures and laminates!

What happened to the laminate on my fixtures?

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Tue, 30 Nov 2021 18:26:01 GMT

Laminate is a common choice for many retailers when they are building their fixtures because it is durable, customizable, and long lasting. But that doesn’t mean it’s immune to problems.

After 25 years of designing and manufacturing retail fixtures, and often being asked to consult on projects that have failed, we can tell you why most laminates crack, split or delaminate.

Reason #1: Too much moisture

Water can destroy a fixture – especially if the water is allowed to sit for a long time. As soon as water gets into the underlying material (below the laminate) it will start to swell and peeling and delamination will occur. Keep your fixtures away from water and condensation, and use proper cleaning products to ensure a long life for your fixtures.

Reason #2: Too little moisture

The humidity of your retail environment plays a large part in the lifespan of your retail fixtures. Too humid, you’re going to run into trouble with swelling (as discussed above). Not humid enough, you may find your laminates shrinking relative to the core causing unsightly gaps.

You’re also going to want to consider where your fixtures are coming from. If you’re purchasing custom retail fixtures from a manufacturer in Calgary (where it is notoriously dry) for a retail location in Calgary…your fixtures will be used to the climate. If you’re bringing your fixtures in from overseas, you can’t really know how your local climate will impact their lifespan.

Reason #3: Holes not pre-drilled

This is a big one for gloss laminates. Laminates can be brittle and if you don’t predrill holes (with the proper type and size of bit) BEFORE you try to put screws into your panels, cracks will form. We recommend using a drill bit slightly larger than the screw you want to use to get through the laminate layer, and then change to the right size bit once you’re in the core. This will ensure your screw won’t actually touch the laminate or cause it to crack.

Reason #4: Edges not rounded

90-degree angles are not good for inside cut-outs when you’re using laminate. When ever you need to cut a square out of a laminate surface you want to make sure you’re using rounded edges (make sure your fixture maker knows to radius the corner). If not, you’re going to end up with stress cracks again.

No retailer wants to invest in beautiful laminate fixtures only to have them crack, split or delaminate. Make sure any company you’re purchasing your fixtures from has a warranty to protect you. A good warranty will cover poor workmanship as well as supplier issues such as a bad batch of laminate, glue that doesn’t stick or a number of other issues outside of the builder’s control. And if you are hiring independent installers, make sure they have experience installing the materials you’ve chosen. When possible, try to find suppliers that understand your climate and are willing to give guidance on proper humidity levels for the fixtures. Lastly, if you’re moving into a space where you won’t be able to control the temperature or humidity of your retail environment, talk to your design and manufacturing team to ensure you’re choosing the appropriate materials.

Is your supply chain working for you?

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Tue, 16 Nov 2021 16:30:58 GMT

If you’d asked us that question pre-pandemic, our answer would have been a loud and confident YES! If you’d asked us one year into the pandemic, our answer would have still been yes, but maybe a bit of a hesitant one. Supply chain issues started to hit different industries pretty quickly but we weren’t feeling the crunch yet.

We knew we had great relationships with our suppliers. We knew we had a great procurement team that were already anticipating potential problems and finding work-arounds for us. So really, we were good. So, what if you asked us today – almost 2 years into the pandemic? The truth is, weaknesses we couldn’t foresee are starting to show up. And from what we’ve been hearing, we are not alone in this.

Supply chain interruptions can wreak havoc on any business

When the world was turned upside down in 2020, our industry came together to support each other through border closings, quarantines, travel restrictions and more. Two years later, we are seeing a bit of a different reality. Everyone is tired of work-arounds and scrambling. And as the pandemic continues, new and unexpected complications keep arising.

Higher costs and longer lead times seems to be the new normal for custom fixture manufacturing

What we have seen in the last few months is scary. Businesses are finally turning themselves into recovery and growth mode after a long stint of profit protection and almost non-existent expansion. Clients are eager to get going. And they are expecting the same process, timelines, and budgets they were used to pre-pandemic.

But everything has changed.

So much of what manufacturing relies on – especially retail fixture manufacturing – comes from suppliers around the world. In the last 3 months, we have had to deal with:

Paid shipments being held in shipping vessels that weren’t allowed to dock to unload
Paid shipments being held due to freight increases that wouldn’t be released until we paid more
Paid shipments being held at the border with no indication of for how long or why

And those are on top of the other pandemic issues like:

Skyrocketing gas surcharges
World-wide material shortages
Increases in the cost of lumber, steel, and glass
Quarantine protocols
Travel restrictions

Like many other manufacturing businesses, we have had to shift our supply chain to find alternative ways of getting our work done. But that in itself creates cascading change. For instance, for years we’ve worked with international companies to manufacture the LED lights we use for retail displays. But as we run into more hurdles getting items we need for our clients – on time and on budget – we have been able to find solutions but then we realize they often come with different problems.

The backbone of a successful supply chain is communication

Whether you’re in custom fixture manufacturing (like us) or anything else, communication is key for making it through challenging times. The strong relationships we’ve spent years developing with our suppliers and clients has helped us overcome some tricky situations. Here are some of the important communication points that have helped us overcome:

Transparent/honest communication with our suppliers about what is ACTUALLY available for projects. Knowing this key information ensures we aren’t selling what we can’t deliver.
Transparent/honest communication between procurement and accounting to see how far we can extend our own inventory to ensure we have materials available on hand for projects. Where before we bought based on orders, we now have certain materials on hand at all times.
Transparent/honest communication with clients early in the new project cycle to manage expectations around both timeline and budget. We have found clients to be more amenable to these conversations early in the process rather than being hit by surprises later in the project.

The closer our relationships are with our suppliers, the more likely they are to give us a heads up before problems arise. The closer our relationships are with our clients, the more likely they are to trust us and offer understanding if/when supply chain issues arise. The more your internal teams are communicating, the more you can adjust schedules or projects or budgets to ensure everything continues to run smoothly.

After almost 25 years in business, we keep coming back to our focus on building long-term relationships – with suppliers, with clients, with our employees and with the community – is really the most important factor in our ongoing success.

Have you considered financing your retail fixtures?

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Tue, 02 Nov 2021 16:05:17 GMT

When most business owners think of financing their business, they are focused on securing funds for merchandise or space, but don’t consider financing the one thing that will tie the merchandise and space together in a meaningful and inspiring way – retail fixtures. The right fixtures can act as another sales person on the floor, inviting customers into your space and drawing attention to your products. So why not invest in getting the right fixtures that will add to your sales potential?

Space planning and retail design are key to your success.

If you’re not already working with a designer for your space, talk to your lease holder. Get ideas. Visit your competition. See how they are putting their store together to attract the right buyers and showcase their wares. Talk to other retailers. Find out how they put together their space. Like any design, it is important to know what feeling you’re trying to create in your space. Then use that to start to put together a plan for what you’ll need to get there.

Here is a list of some of the fixtures that most retail spaces require:

Cash desk
Service Counter
Wall Systems and hardware
Showcases
Mannequins
Shelves
Lighting
Signage (exterior and interior)
Wayfinding

When you’re exploring stores for ideas, pay specific attention to all the items listed above. Notice how other retailers use them. Notice the flow of the space. If you can, talk to employees to see what they like about the space and what they think doesn’t work.

Then talk to a retail fixture specialist like C-West Custom Fixtures. Working with a seasoned supplier like C-West means we can help you clarify your vision, and give you a starting point for understanding both timelines and budgets for your store fixtures.

Now that you’ve got an idea of your budget, it’s time to consider financing.

The costs for fixtures can add up quickly – especially if you haven’t budgeted for the specific design elements you now realize you need to make your retail dream come true. Many retailers choose to finance their retail fixtures. Spreading your payments for fixtures over a manageable timeframe makes getting the right fixtures for your business less of a financial hit.

Financing options to consider

Net 30 O.A.C. - C-West and other fixture suppliers (like The Fixture Store) often have short-term financing available to retailers that meet approved credit requirements. For example, C-West offers some clients the option to have a full 30 days to pay for their fixtures on approved credit.

Credit Cards - You can also ask if your fixture supplier will take credit cards. At C-West, there is a 3% fee for using a credit card if the purchase is over $5000 but often this expense is worth the advantage of using a credit card that will allow you to both accumulate points or cash back AND give you the flexibility you need for payments.

Line of Credit – Have you already established a line of credit for your business? If not, this is something you can discuss with your banking professional. A line of credit can be unsecured or secured and will allow you to handle large purchases as you need to make them for a fixed interest rate that is much lower than traditional credit cards.

Bank Loan – Again, talk to your banking professional to see if you can secure a loan to cover the set-up costs for your retail space. You’ll need to outline various costs and projected revenues in order to be approved.

Canadian Small Business Financing Program – This is a government program that makes it easier for small businesses to get loans from financial institutions by sharing the risk with lenders. You can access this program through most financial institutions.

Equipment Leasing – Companies like Priority Leasing Inc. will sometimes lease store fixtures and displays, signage, computers, furniture, etc. The benefit of leasing is to preserve cash. And you can usually expense your fixture costs monthly over your lease term.

As you can see, there are many options available to help you create the store that you envision. A store with fixtures, signs and lighting that will entice customers and help you move your products. A store of your dreams.

For more information on putting together the budget for your new retail venture, check out this helpful download “Opening Soon – Your Retail Budget Reality Check”. In it you’ll find 3 important checklists to help you budget for success.

The wrong retail glass can shatter your goals

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Tue, 19 Oct 2021 15:39:22 GMT

Glass is everywhere in our homes and workplaces. It's used for windows, walls, and counters. We employ it to display products, showcase new styles, play with light, and help direct the flow of shoppers through your space.

Glass can be thick, thin, transparent, opaque, delicate, durable, and many options in between. Retail glass is available for safety, security, partitions, and mirrors.

Different display applications need different glass.

Consider these scenarios: if a busy countertop has glass that is easily scratched, it would quickly show signs of wear. Or, a customer bumps into a glass display shelf, knocking it over, it could be dangerous.

Wouldn't it be ideal if the display was sturdy enough to withstand scratches and that bump? Material decisions are critical when you’re planning out a design-build.

Consider tempered glass in applications where your glass shelves are exposed to customers. Tempered glass breaks into small pieces vs razor-like shards.

Considerations to make when selecting glass:

If your glass is nearby or within reach of customers.
The manner in which a specific type of glass breaks.
Desired clarity of the glass for its unique display needs.
Resistance to potential heat or temperature variances.
If you require any special coatings, like UV protection.
Any unique security and sound reduction properties.
The overall resistance to all types of surface scratches.
How much you’re willing to invest in your display glass.
Ensuring your landlord will approve the glass selection.

Not using the ideal retail glass for your showcase can have a direct impact on your bottom line.

Not all glass is delicate. See different types of glass under attack in our Breaking Glass video on this page. It will give you a live-action visual of what glass might be best for your application.

Common retail glass types:

Standard plate glass (annealed) is the most cost-efficient and is highly used. However, it can break into large sharp shards.
Heat-strengthened (tempered) glass is stronger than plate glass and is used for glass cookware, as well as commercial applications.
Fully-tempered glass is resistant to breakage 4 times stronger than annealed glass and breaks into tiny pieces when struck from the edge. When hit straight on, it doesn't break.
Laminated glass contains a layer(s) of plastic for added strength. It breaks upon impact and stays intact for safety.

All of the glass types for retail are available in low-iron and standard options. Low-iron glass is especially valued for retail as it is clearer, though more costly.

We’re a glass-half-full type of retail fixtures manufacturer.

Protecting our clients from showcase disasters is part of our job.

Custom retail glass display fixtures are manufactured to the highest standards, including custom engineering. We also offer pre-engineered glass display cases for quicker turn-around that offer the same high-quality standards.

Open a Cannabis Retail Store in Alberta

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Tue, 21 Sep 2021 14:31:00 GMT

Controlled substances like cannabis offer a new retail experience in Canada. While you’re the expert on your product and the various strains, creating a regulation-ready store requires knowledge of cannabis retail regulations.

There are rules to what can be displayed in cannabis retail locations.

Working with an experienced cannabis retail display expert is a great place to start when navigating the ins and outs of your cannabis space. The experts understand the boxes that need to be ticked to get you up and running confidently.

We understand cannabis regulations. Cannabis retail owners in Alberta can showcase up to fifteen sensory product display containers (sample containers) at any one time. That might sound like a random fact, but it’s important to know the regulations to operate a successful cannabis dispensary.

Things your cannabis retail store will need:

A dedicated shipping and receiving area. Sharing with another retailer is not permitted for controlled substances.
Video surveillance and a secure alarm system. Protecting your inventory and offering your staff a sense of security.
Secure (locking) product displays and a secure storage area. Controlling your assets is both in your best interest, and is part of your legal responsibility.

In retail stores, location matters a lot more than you might think.

When selling a controlled substance in a retail store setting, it matters what you are close to. Currently, cannabis retailers need to be more than 100 metres away from all schools, land reserved for future schools, and provincial health care facilities. Download the Alberta Cannabis Operations Manual.

Canada's cannabis retail experience is growing.

Hemp crops have been in use for a long time. Legally marketing and selling it to the masses is what’s new. When you convert an illegal substance like marijuana into a legal one, the “rebrand” is every bit as important as a corporate re-brand.

Store fixtures secure and display your products.

The construction of your store fixtures matters. Retail fixtures for hemp products require locking features to be secure. Even the thickness and clarity of the glass is important. Additionally, the design and presentation of fixtures must speak to your brand and offer a unique experience for consumers.

Choosing a partner that has experience building cannabis fixtures can greatly improve your opportunity for retail success. At C-West, Red Seal journeymen hand-craft fixtures with the utmost precision and care utilizing the most modern materials and techniques in cabinet making.

Our team can support the launch of your specialty retail store.

Cannabis displayed within customer reach must be in a secure showcase that is locked at all times and accessible only by authorized staff.

All cannabis must be in its original sealed package or an approved container. Product inventory must be stored in a locked storage room accessible only by authorized staff.

Cabinets purchased for cannabis retail come with the following:

Uniquely keyed locks for your store, for optimal security.
Lockable cabinet doors and drawers, for durability.
Standard 6 mm tempered low-iron, high-clarity glass.

C-West Sustainability Initiatives

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Wed, 27 May 2020 06:00:00 GMT

Over the past few months, the importance of taking care of each other and our planet has become undeniable.

We have taken a look into our policies and procedures, to measure how sustainable we are as a company and in our thinking. As we continue to learn more about sustainability and our Corporate Social Responsibility, we decided to present our current sustainability initiatives on an infographic.

As we continue to make positive contributions to our Economical, Environmental, and Social Sustainability goals, we look forward to working with our clients and suppliers on achieving their goals too!

Do Your Store Fixtures Help Promote a Hygienic Store Environment?

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Wed, 08 Apr 2020 06:00:00 GMT

Fixture surfaces can actually work alongside us in our battles against bacteria, fungi, and viruses. Restaurants, hospitals, and other healthcare businesses have strict material requirements when it comes to their countertops and cabinets, but these materials are available for anyone to use in their retail or office environments, creating a hygienic place for clients and customers.

Using anti-microbial technology such as metallic agents, surface films, and natural non-porous materials, manufacturers are bringing us many options to choose from so our fixtures are safe for customers and staff.

Learn about C-West Custom Fixtures

info@cwestfixtures.com (C-West Custom Fixtures) — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 07:00:00 GMT

Over 23 Years of Service

C-West Custom Fixtures Inc. was founded in 1997 by Anita MacKenzie as a manufacturer of retail store fixtures and specialty mill-work projects. 23 years later we proudly service North America with our 33,000 square foot, LEED compliant (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) manufacturing facility and head office in Calgary, Alberta. We also work closely with global partners to offer the best value to our clients.

Our specialty is integrating custom-designed millwork with solid surface, metal, glass, plastic, lighting, signage, and graphics as a seamless solutions provider. From concept to completion our team is with you every step of the way. We provide design, store planning, engineering, manufacturing, shipping, and installation as well as ready-to-go fixtures. From roll-out programs to custom manufacturing one-of-a-kind fixtures, we take pride in our workmanship. With our full-service woodworking facility, we combine and incorporate all types of material including glass, metal, plastics, and electrical.

The Shop - Behind The Scenes

C-West's philosophy is to work hard to earn the respect of each and every customer, strategic vendor, our team, and the community we serve, by bringing high standards of craftsmanship and knowledge through our strong tradition of cabinetmaking. The skilled journeymen at C-West are dedicated to understanding the expectations of each customer and are committed to bringing experience and artistry into the 21st century. By mentoring apprentices through the inter-Provincial Red Seal Cabinet Making program, a highly skilled team has been created.

Brand Loyalty and Outstanding Service

We know what may work for one customer may not work for another. That’s why our focus is not on just creating merchandising systems, it's a commitment to quality and value that supports your image and your budget. Our team works to bring your design to life by creating designs that speak to your customers, creating an emotional connection and brand loyalty to your business. We focus on developing solutions for the technical details, materials, and structures to be created.

The fast-paced changes in material usage, combined with new lighting technology available has created an opportunity to work closely with each client and develop prototypes to test new components and new ideas. We find and value engineer solutions to achieve your budget and produce a successful build. Our goal is to create the retail environment you've envisioned and feel passionate about.